Apollo 13

[smartcooky]

See, the thing is, we cheat. You have to go through all the hard work of making up stuff, but we cheat by looking up independently verifiable historical and scientific facts. Having a reality-based approach to the subject matter gives us an unfair advantage.

Simply outstanding!!!

If this were JREF, I'd nominate this passage for the Language Award!!

[sts60]

In my reply #308 earlier, I had problems attaching a graphic that was mentioned.  I've requoted the relevant citation and an admittedly rather cruddy copy of the image is attached.

NASA SP-34, Space Flight Handbooks, Vol. 2, Lunar Flight Handbook, 1963:

In the near-earth environment, radiation hazards occur mainly in the parking and/ or waiting orbit phase, in any orbital phase on earth return, and in the near-earth portions of lunar flight, when the vehicle velocity relative to earth is about 10 km/sec. Radiation dosages and shielding requirements during that portion have been given in Chapter II of Ref. 1. The parking and waiting orbit altitudes in Chapter V as well as the orbital phase during earth return in Chapter X can be selected so as to be below the inner Van Allen belt.
 
Figure 1 illustrates the early phases of a typical lunar mission launched from Cape Canaveral. The doughnut-shaped inner Van Allen belt is shown, with the proton flux indicated by eight cross sections and the geomagnetic equator shown on the earth. The shading indicates the proton flux - the darker the appearance of the shaded area, the higher the flux. The illustrated trajectory (with a relatively high parking orbit altitude) intersects the fringes of the inner Van Allen belt after injection, but the time spent in the region of high proton flux is very small due to the high initial space vehicle velocities.

Allan, will you honor your guarantee?

[Bob B.]

In my reply #308 earlier, I had problems attaching a graphic that was mentioned.  I've requoted the relevant citation and an admittedly rather cruddy copy of the image is attached.

Excellent!  That that shows exactly what we've been describing to allancw.  And from a 1963 publication.

[dwight]

Ah, see but it wasn't written, formatted and printed between July 16 and July 24 1969, and is therefore invalid. Fools.

[RAF]

Allan, will you honor your guarantee?

Well, he did say he would "shut up", and apparently that is what he is doing.

Works for me...

[Luckmeister]

Well, he did say he would "shut up", and apparently that is what he is doing.

Works for me...

Not for me! I want to see him, just once, admit an error in his claims and I want his buddies and followers in wooland who may be lurking here to see it.

[Echnaton]

Don't grip your exhalation, Luckmeister.  Though it would be nice to see him admit the error. 

[jetlagg]

Rationalwiki mentioned Alan's lunacy and subsequent dismemberment by the forum regulars here and I had to create a profile just to say how much I've enjoyed the show.

The internet is an amazing place. Where else can you pick the brains of so many incredibly knowledgeable people? Jay Utah and sts60, I refer to you especially, your knowledge and patience are inspirational (how you keep your cool with people like Alan is beyond me).

Anyway, it's a pity more people can't recognize what a resource the interwebz really are, choosing to use it instead as a new venue for playground-style name calling.

[darren r]

Rationalwiki mentioned Alan's lunacy and subsequent dismemberment by the forum regulars here

Do you have a link to that?

[jetlagg]

Rationalwiki mentioned Alan's lunacy and subsequent dismemberment by the forum regulars here

Do you have a link to that?

I was browsing the clogosphere section and spotted it.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:What_is_going_on_in_the_clogosphere%3F

Search for "Some poor conspiracist went into Apollohoax.net at full tilt, with predictable results". If the other members are so inclined, they can go there as well and upvote its visibility.

[sts60]

Allan, will you honor your guarantee?

Well, he did say he would "shut up", and apparently that is what he is doing.

Works for me...

But I don't want Allan to shut up.   I want him to learn something; specifically, that the radiation hazard from transit of the Van Allen belts was considered, as we have explicitly shown him with the "contemporaneous" references he demanded - and whose existence he denied.

But in order to learn, he's going to have to back up from a position in which he appears to have significant investment - that such trajectory considerations were never even mentioned, let alone that the VAB hazards were adequately mitigated.   That's not an easy step to take, and I propose to cut him a little slack.   (Allan, I'll be happy to offer whatever assistance I can to help you learn more about the topic.)

[Mag40]

Don't grip your exhalation, Luckmeister.  Though it would be nice to see him admit the error.

Especially the one about the JAXA picture being lit from the left! Shadows101 ----- exceedingly obvious.

[darren r]

Search for "Some poor conspiracist went into Apollohoax.net at full tilt, with predictable results". If the other members are so inclined, they can go there as well and upvote its visibility.

Found it. Thanks. Unfortunately, reading some of the other stuff that page links to has given me a headache. I may have to lie down in a darkened room.

[RAF]

I don't want Allan to shut up.   I want him to learn something...

That would be my goal also, but as is said in that old saying... “You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.”

Lets just say that after dealing with these "people" for almost 10 years, it's hard not to get cynical.

[jetlagg]

Lets just say that after dealing with these "people" for almost 10 years, it's hard not to get cynical.

Agreed, I've written friends off for pulling the sort intellectual dishonesty that Allan has. Still, I find sts60's optimism about humanity to be inspiring. And JayUtah mentioned this forum was started by a conspiracy theorist who eventually came around. So, there is hope. Yes?

There was a website dedicated to the art of persuading people who are being irrational, but I seem to have lost the address (I think I first heard it mentioned in Jesse Galef's "Defense Against the Dark Arts" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U47uWryrcc8] but don't have time to crawl through that right now). In the case of Allan, I'd say you need to begin with bad epistemology, rather than attacking any particular incorrect idea. Not to mention combating the psychological profiles (i.e. paranoia, sense of impotence) that make people susceptible to these trains of thought. Still, I prefer to be optimistic. Calmly, rationally and non-dismissively answering these questions might not see any immediate results, but the memetic seeds are being sown in people's minds.