JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[BazBear]

Do we know it was empty? On the video posted in this thread the clip contains six rounds. Assuming Oswald had a full clip, he fired three bullets, and a fourth was ejected when the rifle was discovered. That still leaves two bullets in the clip, doesn't it?

I may be wrong, but from what I read, Oswald was so unprepared to use his rifle that he only had 4 cartridges left when he got ready to kill JFK.  While it is hard for me to load a less than full Garand clip in a rifle, it is easy to load any number of 1 to 6 cartridges into the Carcano.

Ranb

Yes, I agree; it's easier if it's full but not really hard if it isn't.

[Echnaton]

Forum has replied with hearsay, excuses and compliance to conformity.

If that were the case, it would have been easy for you to point out the problems with our criticisms and rebut them with factual and reasoned explanations.  So far this has not occurred.

[Jason Thompson]

Thanks for the answers regarding the clip and the rifle. One other question that occurs: how does the use of a clip that is not full affect its ejection? Assuming you had bullets in positions 1-4, and empty space where rounds 5 & 6 would be, would the ejection still occur smoothly once round 4 was chambered, or would the fact that the clip is not in the usual 'final' position at that point have any effect such as causing it to jam or requiring more cycling of the bolt to the equivalent position of chambering round 6 before it fell out? I have no idea how the mechanics inside the rifle work, so I am genuinely curious on this point.

[gillianren]

In addition, excusing your own rudeness using a straw man characterization to criticize your opponents is chicken.  You simply owe gillianren an apology.  That is really all that is required.

Yeah, well, I'm not holding my breath.  But if, by some miracle, it happens, would someone let me know?

[Ranb]

One other question that occurs: how does the use of a clip that is not full affect its ejection?

The clip is simply a flat piece of steel that was formed in a press.  If you look at the photo I posted you will notice a indentation on the left side (back end) of the clip that starts at the bottom and goes nearly (hidden in that photo) all the way to the top.  The clip is loaded by pushing a cartidge back first into the clip then sliding it down so that the indentation grabs the extraction groove cut into the rimless cartridge case.  If six cartridges are loaded, then they are all held somewhat firmly in place and do not slide around.  If fewer cartridges are loaded into the clip, then they will slide around  but stay attached.  Loading few cartridges in the clip does not make it harder to load into the magazine unlike with the M-1 Garand.

In the portion of the photo labeled (1), you can see what looks like a lever.  This is spring loaded and ensures that the cartridges loaded into the clip stay at the top where the bolt can push them into the chamber when it is moved forward.  When the top cartridge is loaded, the spring loaded lever pushs the rest of the cartridges up so the next one is in position when the bolt is cycled again.  The clip stays in place until the last cartridge is moved into the chamber by the bolt, then it slides out as long as the rifle is held near horizontal and right side up.

Unlike the M-1 Garand which flings the empty clip out with a loud "sprong" noise when the last cartridge is fired, the Carcano clip merely slides nearly noislessly out the bottom when the last cartridge is loaded.  But until the last cartridge is fired or loaded, the clip does the same thing in both firearms, it holds the ammo in position so that the bolt can feed it into the chamber.

Ranb

[Jason Thompson]

Thank you, very thorough and informative.

So, assuming Oswald had four bullets in his clip, then the reports from the commission suggest that he fired the third shot, then cycled the bolt to chamber the fourth before abandoning the rifle and fleeing. Upon the rifle being found the last round was ejected. The clip should have dropped from the gun when Oswald cycled the bolt after the head shot. However, no report of the clip being found on the floor was made, suggesting it was still in the gun.

Are the following scenarios possible?

1: The spent shell from the last shot was ejected, but Oswald noticed his shot had blown the President's brains out and did not chamber the fourth round. The rifle was found with the bolt in the 'pulled back' position (I don't know the correct terminology) and the police officer cycled the bolt to chamber and then eject the last round. This should also have caused the clip to drop out of the gun, but again no mention of the clip doing so was made.

2: Oswald tried to chamber a fourth round and take another shot, but the 'jam-prone' Carcano jammed, and the jam resulted in the clip being loosely stuck in the rifle.

3: At the time of chambering the last round the gun was not being held horizontally, and hence the clip did not slide smoothly out, getting hung up on the way and staying in the rifle.

[Ranb]

I have read that Captain Fritz emptied the rifle by opening the bolt and ejecting a live cartridge.  Assuming that Oswald loaded the fourth load after firing the third, the clip should have been under the window in the room he was firing from.  I have never read anything about finding an empty clip.

1.  It is possible that this was done.  But what I have read is that Fritz ejected one live round from the chamber, so this means the clip should have not been in the magazine at the time they found the rifle.

2.  I have never heard any Carcano owner complain about their rifle being jam prone.  It is based on the Mauser action which is very reliable as most bolt action rifles are.  The clip typically does an excellent job of lining up the next cartridge to feed into the chamber.  But if the clip is bent, the cartridge may misfeed.

3.  Who knows, it is possible. 

Ranb

[Chew]

2.  I have never heard any Carcano owner complain about their rifle being jam prone.  It is based on the Mauser action which is very reliable as most bolt action rifles are.  The clip typically does an excellent job of lining up the next cartridge to feed into the chamber.  But if the clip is bent, the cartridge may misfeed.

One of the spent shells found in the sniper's nest had a damaged neck so that is a possibility.

LT Day says he removed the clip while processing the rifle.

[Ranb]

Empty brass necks tend to be dented upon ejection, but this is much more common with semi-auto rifles than bolt action.  A live cartridge with a dented neck/bullet is unlikely to chamber at all.

Ranb

[Ranb]

LT Day says he removed the clip while processing the rifle.

Thanks, I did not know that.

Ranb

[BazBear]

LT Day says he removed the clip while processing the rifle.

I mentioned this in post 652 

[BazBear]

I have read that Captain Fritz emptied the rifle by opening the bolt and ejecting a live cartridge.  Assuming that Oswald loaded the fourth load after firing the third, the clip should have been under the window in the room he was firing from.  I have never read anything about finding an empty clip.

1.  It is possible that this was done.  But what I have read is that Fritz ejected one live round from the chamber, so this means the clip should have not been in the magazine at the time they found the rifle.

2.  I have never heard any Carcano owner complain about their rifle being jam prone.  It is based on the Mauser action which is very reliable as most bolt action rifles are.  The clip typically does an excellent job of lining up the next cartridge to feed into the chamber.  But if the clip is bent, the cartridge may misfeed.

3.  Who knows, it is possible. 

Ranb

My Carcano has never given me a problem. The only thing I really dislike is the safety is a bear to engage and disengage, but I don't know if that's a common complaint.

[Chew]

6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, 6 shots in 5.1 seconds.

[ka9q]

Youtube user mag30th is a real gem. He owns a Carcano rifle just like LHO's, and he has produced numerous videos that solidly debunk the many myths about this rifle from would-be conspiracy advocates.

Some of his stuff is so good that when I recently cited it in another debate with some die-hard JFK conspiracists, they didn't discuss or even acknowledge it. Rather they quietly filed a "harassment" complaint with Youtube and had it removed.

I'd be hard pressed to find a better illustration of the intellectual dishonesty of the average JFK conspiracy nut. If there are any honest ones still left (it has been almost 50 years!) they ought to take a good, long hard look at the people around them and decide if they really want to be associated with them.

[Ranb]

It was alleged that mag30th harassed people with his video?  How was YouTube convinced of that?

Ranb