Deconstructing Apollo 20

[Abaddon]

Santa Barbara County is not far from LA.  It strikes me as not unlikely that the entire population of Los Angeles County would be aware of an Apollo launch from Vandenburg.  Also, I'm pretty sure the Amtrak lines run right past the launch facility.

They Hired David Copperield to hide everything!

I actually know how he did the famous 'hide the statue of liberty' trick. Like many of the best tricks, it's simple, dead simple in principle, and all around ingenious. And, as if it needs to be said, it would not work for this.

My father was a stage magician, and I inherited. Both he and I found Copperfield to be irritating in extremis. Both of us much preferred illusions which could be performed right under your nose. This "bigger is better" malarkey annoyed the bejeebers out of both of us. Sadly, he has shuffled of this mortal coil, but I continue the tradition and carry some illusions with me whenever I attend dinner at friends, things you can do right in front of their eyes on their place mat.

At some point, before I in turn shuffle of this mortal coil myself, I will pass on what I have learnt to my kids, but today is not that day.

[Ishkabibble]

Okay, you say so. That's good enough for me, on this particular forum, but what facts can be presented to disprove it?

Cannot prove a negative. I find it amusing that you have fallen for this trap despite everything posted on here. If someone makes the affirmative claim that F1 launches occurred at VAB then it is up to them to them to demonstrate it. Nevertheless, here are all known launches and vehicles.

http://www.astronautix.com/sites/vannberg.htm

Somehow, a Saturn V went unseen because...reasons.
 

I saw once where some guy calculated the impact points of the first and second stages of all the Saturn V launches, and if they'd come from Vandenberg all the first stages would have impacted somewhere in Arizona, and all the second stages would have impacted somewhere in North Carolina. Except, I don't have any idea how to do that kind of math. I'm a history professor.  I wouldn't even know where to start.

That is more a function of politics than maths. The US planned their landings to occur in places where they had control just as the Russians plan their landings to occur in the steppes. Hell, Soyuz still smacks down in the steppes to this day. It is not a matter of math, or orbits or even spacecraft. It is a matter of where you prefer the spacecraft to land by choice.

Also, I have read some news articles where people from as far away as Columbia, SC and Savannah, GA both saw contrails from Apollo 17s night launch, around 12:40am or so, and a Time article saying that it was visible from the North Carolina coast.

Simple geometry gets you there. They were ascending on the biggest rocket ever to the furthest distance manned flight ever reached.

So given this, and how densely populated the area around Vandenberg is, (Santa Barbara County alone was 277,000 in 1972) Would it just not be possible that a launch of a vehicle that size would not be seen? How do you prove something like that?

Do not accept the reversal of the burden of proof. If the claim is that it could be concealed in any way, then the burden of proof rests with the claimant to demonstrate that it could be so concealed. It is a commonplace tactic of the deranged loons to reverse the burden of proof. Don't fall for it. If they claim covert Saturn launches at VAB, then it is on them to show that such occurred, not for you to show that such never happened.

Whoa... wait just a damn minute.... I am not some hoax nut who can be brushed off with an arrogant response. I never said I believed any of this. I know better.  You've gone out of your way to be insulting, in my opinion, and I am angry as a result.

I have not fallen for anything. I'm asking for something that all of the people here have asked every hoax nut for. Evidence beyond someone's word. Nothing more. Either way, I don't give a rat's rosy red ass what you find amusing. I asked for specific information, not derision. Which, by the way, nobody has posted anything other than asides. There are no sources for additional information, no citations, and no efforts other than to say "that's impossible." I know it is, but I want to be able to know WHY it is, so that someone else can't dismiss the evidence. What's so hard to understand about that. the best way to respond to idiots expressing false opinions is with facts and valid citations. Those things that every one of us here has demanded from idiots like AwE130, Tarkus, Hunchbacked, and Neil Baker. They can't provide factual information. They don't have any to provide. In the absence of facts, hoax nuts take root. In the presence of facts, they tend to go away.

You and I, and everyone else here know that hoax nuts NEVER provide any evidence, factual or otherwise. All they ever fall back on is someone else's hoax belief. I have never accepted anything other than someone actually providing evidence I can check on my own. If one of my students puts something in a paper, or makes a statement, I require that they have citation. Chapter and verse. This situation is no different. The hoax nut is claiming that Vandenberg was the launch site for "clusters of F1 engines" and I want to respond to it with factual evidence that it just ain't so. I've noticed that when you give them factual evidence, they tend to shut up if they don't move the goal posts first.

I am fully aware that they have the burden of proof. I also have a desire to never let false information pass unchallenged. If someone is going to make a claim, and don't follow up to a request for verification, then it seems to me to be important to not let that void go unfilled, because there are dozens of other idiots out there who absolutely won't know why. I'd rather explain why and kill the thing in its tracks.

Now, can you provide the information I asked about? If not, kindly stay out of it then. There are others here who can, and who won't be so derisive about it.

[Ishkabibble]

Okay, you say so. That's good enough for me, on this particular forum, but what facts can be presented to disprove it?

Cannot prove a negative. I find it amusing that you have fallen for this trap despite everything posted on here. If someone makes the affirmative claim that F1 launches occurred at VAB then it is up to them to them to demonstrate it. Nevertheless, here are all known launches and vehicles.

http://www.astronautix.com/sites/vannberg.htm

Somehow, a Saturn V went unseen because...reasons.
 

I saw once where some guy calculated the impact points of the first and second stages of all the Saturn V launches, and if they'd come from Vandenberg all the first stages would have impacted somewhere in Arizona, and all the second stages would have impacted somewhere in North Carolina. Except, I don't have any idea how to do that kind of math. I'm a history professor.  I wouldn't even know where to start.

That is more a function of politics than maths. The US planned their landings to occur in places where they had control just as the Russians plan their landings to occur in the steppes. Hell, Soyuz still smacks down in the steppes to this day. It is not a matter of math, or orbits or even spacecraft. It is a matter of where you prefer the spacecraft to land by choice.

Also, I have read some news articles where people from as far away as Columbia, SC and Savannah, GA both saw contrails from Apollo 17s night launch, around 12:40am or so, and a Time article saying that it was visible from the North Carolina coast.

Simple geometry gets you there. They were ascending on the biggest rocket ever to the furthest distance manned flight ever reached.

So given this, and how densely populated the area around Vandenberg is, (Santa Barbara County alone was 277,000 in 1972) Would it just not be possible that a launch of a vehicle that size would not be seen? How do you prove something like that?

Do not accept the reversal of the burden of proof. If the claim is that it could be concealed in any way, then the burden of proof rests with the claimant to demonstrate that it could be so concealed. It is a commonplace tactic of the deranged loons to reverse the burden of proof. Don't fall for it. If they claim covert Saturn launches at VAB, then it is on them to show that such occurred, not for you to show that such never happened.

Whoa... wait just a damn minute.... I am not some hoax nut who can be brushed off with an arrogant response. I never said I believed any of this. I know better.  You've gone out of your way to be insulting, in my opinion, and I am angry as a result.

I have not fallen for anything. I'm asking for something that all of the people here have asked every hoax nut for. Evidence beyond someone's word. Nothing more. Either way, I don't give a rat's rosy red ass what you find amusing. I asked for specific information, not derision. Which, by the way, nobody has posted anything other than asides. There are no sources for additional information, no citations, and no efforts other than to say "that's impossible." I know it is, but I want to be able to know WHY it is, so that someone else can't dismiss the evidence. What's so hard to understand about that. the best way to respond to idiots expressing false opinions is with facts and valid citations. Those things that every one of us here has demanded from idiots like AwE130, Tarkus, Hunchbacked, and Neil Baker. They can't provide factual information. They don't have any to provide. In the absence of facts, hoax nuts take root. In the presence of facts, they tend to go away.

You and I, and everyone else here know that hoax nuts NEVER provide any evidence, factual or otherwise. All they ever fall back on is someone else's hoax belief. I have never accepted anything other than someone actually providing evidence I can check on my own. If one of my students puts something in a paper, or makes a statement, I require that they have citation. Chapter and verse. This situation is no different. The hoax nut is claiming that Vandenberg was the launch site for "clusters of F1 engines" and I want to respond to it with factual evidence that it just ain't so. I've noticed that when you give them factual evidence, they tend to shut up if they don't move the goal posts first.

I am fully aware that they have the burden of proof. I also have a desire to never let false information pass unchallenged. If someone is going to make a claim, and don't follow up to a request for verification, then it seems to me to be important to not let that void go unfilled, because there are dozens of other idiots out there who absolutely won't know why. I'd rather explain why and kill the thing in its tracks.

All this twaddle about David Copperfield is irrelevant to the questions I asked. How would one calculate where the various stages would impact? I know that the information where they did impact in the Atlantic exists, I just have no idea where to begin to look for it. I'm sure someone else here does. If I have to drag out a map in the science department offices at my university, I'll find someone who can make the calculations.

Now, can you provide the information I asked about? If not, kindly stay out of it then. There are others here who can, and who won't be so derisive about it.

[VQ]

Whoa... wait just a damn minute.... I am not some hoax nut who can be brushed off with an arrogant response. I never said I believed any of this. I know better.  You've gone out of your way to be insulting, in my opinion, and I am angry as a result.

This response seems unmerited by the post to which it is directed. Mebbe have a cup of tea and then reread it to see if it could be interpreted in a way that was not arrogant or insulting? I didn't pick up either from Abaddon's post.

[bknight]

Double post Ishkabibble?

[raven]

I'm not an engineer, but we know how far down range the Saturn V stages impacted when launched from Cape Canaveral, and we know these numbers are accurate since parts have been recovered from those locations. So . . . just plot from Vandenberg over the continental United States to see where, generally, they'd land. Or am I missing something?

[smartcooky]

Abaddon

Personally I have no problem myself in accepting a "reverse burden of proof" when I know I can smash the stupid down with reason.

In this case, "hiding Saturn V launches at Vandenberg" the notion can be dismissed with one word.... "noise"

The town of Santa Maria is only 10km away from the launch pads, and while it might be possible to hide the great big rocket by painting it black and launching at night with no lights, but you cannot hide the noise. A Saturn V rocket lifting off with its five F1 engines chucking several million pounds of thrust out the back, generates a sound level of about 90 db at that distance. That is VERY loud.. as loud as a fighter jet running at take-off power 500 metres away..... No-one in Santa Maria could have missed it.

I have a friend who used to live in Port Orange, FL a few km south of Daytona Beach and about 60km from the KSC. He once told me that and his Dad could hear the Saturn V launch and then see them soon after they launched. He also told me that then could hear and feel the rumble of Space Shuttle launches.

[Abaddon]

Whoa... wait just a damn minute.... I am not some hoax nut who can be brushed off with an arrogant response. I never said I believed any of this. I know better.  You've gone out of your way to be insulting, in my opinion, and I am angry as a result.

I did not accuse you of any such thing. I was not insulting. I simply stuck to the facts of the matter at hand. What I did state is that you, like many of us get sucked in to the HB contentions very easily. Happens to me, you and all of us from time to time. That is the HB game. I can personally attest that the red mist has fallen over my eyes from time to time. I try to avoid it as best I can, but sometimes a HB will post something so egregious that one cannot help oneself.

By the same token, when one sees a fellow doing the same thing, one is obliged to say "Whoa, step back from the abyss, brother".

You might take a moment to read what I actually wrote when you cool down.

As for the rest of your post? I have no issue. Except for this.

Now, can you provide the information I asked about? If not, kindly stay out of it then. There are others here who can, and who won't be so derisive about it.

This is a discussion forum. You cannot lay down rules for who may or may not participate in said discussion. That is not your remit, responsibility or right. It is LO and LO alone who sets the standard, and a high standard it is.

The bottom line here is that you have somehow purloined my post into a personal insult. I have no idea how you did that, but you have. Since I wrote it, you can take it from me that it was not so intended.

[Abaddon]

Abaddon

Personally I have no problem myself in accepting a "reverse burden of proof" when I know I can smash the stupid down with reason.

In this case, "hiding Saturn V launches at Vandenberg" the notion can be dismissed with one word.... "noise"

The town of Santa Maria is only 10km away from the launch pads, and while it might be possible to hide the great big rocket by painting it black and launching at night with no lights, but you cannot hide the noise. A Saturn V rocket lifting off with its five F1 engines chucking several million pounds of thrust out the back, generates a sound level of about 90 db at that distance. That is VERY loud.. as loud as a fighter jet running at take-off power 500 metres away..... No-one in Santa Maria could have missed it.

I have a friend who used to live in Port Orange, FL a few km south of Daytona Beach and about 60km from the KSC. He once told me that and his Dad could hear the Saturn V launch and then see them soon after they launched. He also told me that then could hear and feel the rumble of Space Shuttle launches.

See, there is a common trope that HB types are living in Mom's basement. This is supportive evidence that this may be true. The sheer racket that such a launch would generate would be sufficient but the HB crew would propose "silent" launches without ever specifying how such silence was achieved.

This is how HB ideas escalate. They must create ever expanding lies to accommodate their glaring inconsistencies. For example, last tale I heard was that the VAB launches were silent because they were using alien propulsion systems. Now, if you can invent a deus ex machina on an ad hoc basis to suit whatever baloney one is pushing there is no amount of rational thought which will make the slightest bit of difference to a HB loon.

[gwiz]

Saturn V rocket lifting off with its five F1 engines chucking several million pounds of thrust out the back, generates a sound level of about 90 db at that distance. That is VERY loud.. as loud as a fighter jet running at take-off power 500 metres away..... No-one in Santa Maria could have missed it.

I witnessed the night launch of Apollo 17.  It isn't just the noise, the exhaust lit up the whole area, anyone awake within a large surrounding area would have noticed.

[Luckmeister]

Saturn V rocket lifting off with its five F1 engines chucking several million pounds of thrust out the back, generates a sound level of about 90 db at that distance. That is VERY loud.. as loud as a fighter jet running at take-off power 500 metres away..... No-one in Santa Maria could have missed it.

I witnessed the night launch of Apollo 17.  It isn't just the noise, the exhaust lit up the whole area, anyone awake within a large surrounding area would have noticed.

As my first job out of college, I worked at VAB in the early 60's and lived in both Santa Maria and Lompoc during that time. Even the puny (by comparison) Atlas launches were very obvious from either town and the night launches were spectacular as the rocket exhaust lit up the cloud layer as they passed through.

[bknight]

Saturn V rocket lifting off with its five F1 engines chucking several million pounds of thrust out the back, generates a sound level of about 90 db at that distance. That is VERY loud.. as loud as a fighter jet running at take-off power 500 metres away..... No-one in Santa Maria could have missed it.

I witnessed the night launch of Apollo 17.  It isn't just the noise, the exhaust lit up the whole area, anyone awake within a large surrounding area would have noticed.

As my first job out of college, I worked at VAB in the early 60's and lived in both Santa Maria and Lompoc during that time. Even the puny (by comparison) Atlas launches were very obvious from either town and the night launches were spectacular as the rocket exhaust lit up the cloud layer as they passed through.

An eye witness account that should put to rest any conspiracy thoughts on covert Saturn V launches from VAB!

[gillianren]

See, there is a common trope that HB types are living in Mom's basement. This is supportive evidence that this may be true. The sheer racket that such a launch would generate would be sufficient but the HB crew would propose "silent" launches without ever specifying how such silence was achieved.

. . . And sound doesn't travel in basements?  I'm not following you, here.  I have a friend who lives in his in-laws' basement, and he would still, if I asked, be well aware that rockets are loud.

[darren r]

The sheer racket that such a launch would generate would be sufficient but the HB crew would propose "silent" launches without ever specifying how such silence was achieved.

Perhaps they envision them being launched from underground, like a Minuteman, or Thunderbird 1.

Incidentally, wouldn't the Saturn V have to be transported to Vandenberg first? It'd be hard to miss huge pieces of rocket being carried up on barges. Someone, surely, would have noticed them.

[Bryanpoprobson]

Perhaps they envision them being launched from underground, like a Minuteman, or Thunderbird 1.

Incidentally, wouldn't the Saturn V have to be transported to Vandenberg first? It'd be hard to miss huge pieces of rocket being carried up on barges. Someone, surely, would have noticed them.

Not to mention the assembly.