Author Topic: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...  (Read 96078 times)

Offline Ishkabibble

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • The Truth is Out There...
HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« on: August 28, 2015, 11:56:51 PM »
I've followed the hoax debate for a long time in lurk mode, on YT, on various fora, here, Clavius, Cosmoquest, and other places, and it suddenly occurred to me...

All of the threads I've read, (and some of them were huge!) all of the arguments I've witnessed, all of the "debates" (I use that term loosely) all seem to end up with the HBs, CTs, Deniers, etc.. all saying some variations of the same thing: "There is nothing you can tell me that will change my mind! I know it was a hoax!" (usually followed by some observation regarding the parentage of the person debunking the hoax)

My question is, knowing that I have not seen all possible discussions, are there any known instances of a hoax believer (or their cousins) saying anything along the lines of, "Up until now, I had been firmly convinced that it was a hoax, but you've presented me with enough believable evidence that disproves my theory, that I've changed my mind!"

Has that actually ever happened? Can anyone post links to a disbeliever ever having their mind changed?
You don't "believe" that the lunar landings happened. You either understand the science or you don't.

If the lessons of history teach us any one thing, it is that no one learns the lessons that history teaches...

Offline Philthy

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 12:03:35 AM »
This very forum is one example.

The original owner of this site was a "dyed-in-the-wool" Apollo Hoax Believer, he actually examined the evidence, and discovered he was wrong.

He is in a very tiny minority, of a very tiny minority.

Phil
The capacity of conspiracy theorists to deny science and hand-wave away evidence is infinite, as is their level of stupid. -- Smartcooky

Offline Ishkabibble

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • The Truth is Out There...
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 02:23:38 AM »
In the spirit of the multitude of posts I have read on this and many other fora: "Do you have any evidence to support that claim? I won't believe it without some incontrovertible evidence!"  ;D

All joking aside, I didn't know that.

Any others?

You don't "believe" that the lunar landings happened. You either understand the science or you don't.

If the lessons of history teach us any one thing, it is that no one learns the lessons that history teaches...

Offline raven

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1651
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 02:41:46 AM »
Well, I was able to convince one CT that the LM ascent stage rocket should not produce a visible flame except briefly at  start-up.

Offline Bob B.

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Bob the Excel Guru™
    • Rocket & Space Technology
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 02:53:05 AM »
The only other one that I can think of is Vincent McConnell, though he seems to have just been a young misguided teenager who eventual saw the error of his ways.
 
 

Offline DD Brock

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2015, 03:15:49 AM »
There's that fella Alan over on Infowars who says he used to be a hoax believer, but our good friend Adrian/awe130's behavior convinced him otherwise.

Offline Bryanpoprobson

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 829
  • Another Clown
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2015, 03:41:38 AM »
The only other one that I can think of is Vincent McConnell, though he seems to have just been a young misguided teenager who eventual saw the error of his ways.

Vince was the one I thought of, for someone who was a good friend of Kangaboy it was a huge turnaround for the lad. I speak to him regularly, his conversion was due in no small part to Astrobrant2. But in general it is hard to convince most HB to change their opinion, because they like to think they are "some way" separate from the rest of the sheeple. I am convinced that most Hoax Believers have brains that condition them into readily believing conspiracy theories, it is common for most of them to have multiple beliefs, be it NWO, 9-11, Chem-Trails, UFO's, etc, etc. With such ingrained acceptance of wild notions it is hard to make them waiver in their opinions. When faced with overwhelming evidence that a particular piece of evidence is wrong, rather than reconsider the whole premise of their belief, they switch to the "But what about this!" mode.
"Wise men speak because they have something to say!" "Fools speak, because they have to say something!" (Plato)

Offline Apollo 957

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2015, 05:32:26 AM »
I've seen a couple of folk over at YouTube accept reasoned explanations of various aspects of the missions .. but not much more than that. I'll post links if I spot them.

Offline ChrLz

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2015, 05:45:17 AM »
Can't offer names off the top of my head, but I have seen a few, eg at 'Unexplained Mysteries", including one well known regular.  The more common type just pops up from lurking, usually late in a thread, to say they were once undecided (mainly because they hadn't studied the evidence at all), and then thank the posters for tipping them into the believer camp.

And I would have to observe that around the 40th Anniversary of Apollo 11 there were quite a few folks popping up to (very ignorantly) deny Apollo, but they were largely run off the forums (often banned as they exploded in angry ad hominems) and are now dwindling to almost zero these days.  Maybe they still hang out at Godlike or ATS, but those places have lost my interest completely.

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3148
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2015, 09:05:02 AM »
Can't offer names off the top of my head, but I have seen a few, eg at 'Unexplained Mysteries", including one well known regular.  The more common type just pops up from lurking, usually late in a thread, to say they were once undecided (mainly because they hadn't studied the evidence at all), and then thank the posters for tipping them into the believer camp.

And I would have to observe that around the 40th Anniversary of Apollo 11 there were quite a few folks popping up to (very ignorantly) deny Apollo, but they were largely run off the forums (often banned as they exploded in angry ad hominems) and are now dwindling to almost zero these days.  Maybe they still hang out at Godlike or ATS, but those places have lost my interest completely.
In my small part of reading many threads here, CosmoQuest, Education and YT I never run onto one that changed except for the young man named by Bryanpoprobson.  Most are viral use abusive, foul and aggressive language (as some that believe in Apollo) to assert their beliefs.   I have tried to inject a few logical or technological statements to a few, but with no converts.  They know more than learned individuals because we are "programmed" or sheeples and (un)paid shills.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Bob B.

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Bob the Excel Guru™
    • Rocket & Space Technology
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2015, 11:57:18 AM »
There are degrees of skepticism about the Apollo landings.  There are some people who just go through a momentary period of doubt when they've seen or read the hoax rubbish for the first time and don't know to how to debunk it.  These people often do their research and are soon turned around when they realize it's all a bunch of hokum.  We rarely hear from these people because they're not the ones that typically go join web forums to spew a bunch of hoax nonsense.  They're certainly out there, however, because I occasionally receive emails of thanks from those who have found my web site.

There are others who, for some reason or another, completely buy into the hoax theory and become emotionally invested in it.  Once it becomes an emotional thing, it's virtually impossible to get them to change their minds. These are the hoax believers that we typically run into at Apollohoax, YouTube, and other places.  Although they are clearly the most vocal and visible group, I suspect they are just a small minority (at least I hope so).



Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2015, 12:00:45 PM »
My question is, knowing that I have not seen all possible discussions, are there any known instances of a hoax believer (or their cousins) saying anything along the lines of, "Up until now, I had been firmly convinced that it was a hoax, but you've presented me with enough believable evidence that disproves my theory, that I've changed my mind!"

There were two at YT once the LRO pictures were published, NASANAZI and one use whose tag evades my memory.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Ishkabibble

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • The Truth is Out There...
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2015, 12:11:40 PM »
I'm ambivalent reading this thread, mostly because I am totally dumbfounded as to why people would rather believe it was all faked, than acknowledge and revel in the knowledge that we actually did something so amazing. That kind of mixed-feeling really makes me wonder about the future of humanity.

I'm also amazed that there haven't been more converts, given the incredible amount of technical and scientific knowledge I see here on this and other fora.

I've also pretty much given up on YT, because of Hunchbacked and Batmannn. Those two guys, I'm convinced, are taking contrarian positions just because they can.

I really hate this "ask a question, get an answer, and then but yes, what about this?" type responses that they do. Moon Man and Awe both do the same thing.

Thanks for the responses, and keep the thread going, we might end up with more converts along the way! That is what this is all about, isn't it?
You don't "believe" that the lunar landings happened. You either understand the science or you don't.

If the lessons of history teach us any one thing, it is that no one learns the lessons that history teaches...

Offline nomuse

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 859
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2015, 12:35:05 PM »
The Apollo Hoax has always surprised me for the form it takes. But I think I just this moment, re-reading this thread, figured out why it takes this form.

On the face of it, this is what you have; a group of people (the hoax believers) who generally have a poor understanding of science and engineering and almost without qualification have no background in aerospace engineering or space sciences, suggest a conspiracy theory, and chose as the strongest support for their claim technical and scientific arguments!

This is what primarily attracted me. I'm no scientist. To really understand how Apollo was achieved and what motivated some of the choices really does require the proper education and training. And to properly critique those choices -- well, you should really have credentials in the field to do that.

However, the specific arguments the hoaxies make are often wrapped in misunderstandings that can be tested on the level of kitchen-table science. I'd want to be a Hassleblad engineer to really discuss the thermal properties of the camera, but I only need to be a self-taught cartoonist, or a weekend photographer, in order to show the "converging shadows" arguments of the hoaxies are utter nonsense.

So why do the hoax promoters lead with claims that are so easy to dismantle? Why are they going into science and logic when their strengths are perhaps more in emotional argument and the murky haze of political, social, behavior speculations?

And the reason that just came to me is this; they aren't a rocket scientist, but they play one on YouTube. They reach for what appear to be mistakes in basic science and logic because those are easy to illustrate and sound intelligent. They fight fire with fire; confront the entire idea of the cadre of rocket scientists who managed these feats with what look to be scientific blunders.

And they succeed because their target audience is no better at science or logic then they are, and in any case is uninterested in disagreeing.

And there is another, closely-related reason. Many of the things the hoaxies like to point at and claim violate science, do indeed violate something. But that something isn't science; it is intuition, the "common sense" formed of of a lifetime of experience at the bottom of a gravity well swimming in a blanket of compressed gas at almost exactly the triple point of water; a most peculiar environment indeed by the standards of the universe.

So they have their little videos and their sound-bite quotes of "no stars were visible" and "it got very cold on board" and they are easily able to point and gibber, "This doesn't make sense! This is obviously scientifically wrong!"

Oh, yes. And once they've found one of these killer observations (like "no stars"), they'll hold on to it with sheer emotional doggedness. This I am convinced is why we get ever more esoteric discussions with some hoaxies about whether a specific astronaut on a specific mission meant exactly what he said when he described seeing or not seeing extra-lunar objects. Because somewhere down there in the hoaxies emotional makeup is that treasured "aha!" moment when they realized there were no stars in the backgrounds of the Apollo Surface Record, and they are unwilling to finally let go of that first love.

Offline mako88sb

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 293
Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2015, 12:59:20 PM »
The only other one that I can think of is Vincent McConnell, though he seems to have just been a young misguided teenager who eventual saw the error of his ways.

Vince was the one I thought of, for someone who was a good friend of Kangaboy it was a huge turnaround for the lad.

I didn't know they used to be buddies. Quite the reversal indeed. I asked him once what was the one proof that convinced him the most that the landings happened and he said it was the "Apollo 11: Fingerprints in Deep Space" video from Lunar Tuner. I hadn't seen it at that time and found it quite informative. I've linked it often but nobody has admitted that they changed their viewpoint because of it yet. Does shut a lot of them up however. Same as the "Irrefutable Proof for Moon Landing - Lunar Gravity" video by amontaiyagala.