Shenzhou 7?

[Andromeda]

You brought for the claim that China has the capability to put man into space. That was not part of the original debate, therefore it is YOUR claim. Your original argument. Debates work on the premise that each side must offer evidence for their stance and be convincing. You said China has the capability to put man into space. Until you provide a source of that information, it's just a bald assertion and you might as well retract it completely, for it is useless.

Again, I say bollocks.  It is NOT Jason's claim and original argument that China put a man into space.  That claim was made by CHINA and supported by various agencies around the world, including NASA.  Go and search on NASA's webpage and you'll find tons of stuff about what China are up to in space.

I am quite stunned at your attitude.

[Jason Thompson]

OK. A few minutes into the EVA video and I've noticed one instance that is similar but not identical to what I remember seeing.
At 3:13, Zhai is moving his lower wrists and hands. His legs are away from the craft and he makes no movements below his center of mass. The only movement appears to be his hands as he works on the tether. Over the course of a few seconds, his legs start to float aimlessly "upward" relative to the camera's frame. There appears to be no movement in that area. Why did his legs float?

Because his legs are still attached to the rest of him. In the absence of external forces EVERY movement he makes ANYWHERE will affect his entire body, especially if those movements are made against another object. Moreover, the relative size of him and the spacecraft means that the spacecraft itself will move a little as well, and since the camera is on the spacecraft that will translate to a video appearing to show a fixed craft with the man moving in relation to it.

Watch the Gemini 12 EVA film for similar issues with Aldrin. He ends up in some very strange positions relative to his spacecraft before the tethers himself firmly in place.

And I still await your acknowledgement of the 'upward' floating strap and coiled tether from the part of the Gemini 4 EVA before Ed White exits the spacecraft, which you seem to have glossed over in the hope no-one noticed.

[Jason Thompson]

covered my side of this debate thoroughly.

Not even close.

You have not shown that objects like the flag will move in the same way underwater. You have not acknowledged the various challenges to Dr Qu Zheng's 'expertise'.

You brought forth a part of this argument that does not pertain specifically to Shenzhou 7.

I did not.

You claim that China has the ability to put man into space. Do you have any evidence for that? Please answer that simple question.

So you think that spacefaring nations and other countries with the capability to track and communicate with orbiting spacecraft can be easily fooled by the evil commies?

China may have a LOT of control over the stuff it releases to the outside world, but a) it is not absolute, and b) it is impossible to conceal a spacecraft that orbits the entire world once every 90 minutes and can be tracked by anyone with the capability.

The 'evidence' is the combined acknowledgement of the achievement by many other countries, several of which are ideologically opposed to China's government if not outright hostile, and several of which would be more than happy to expose a fraud of that kind.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Vincent, we're still waiting for the results of your underwater flag waving experiment. When will you provide them?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

No. I don't doubt that. But you're still offering a straw man. Put it this way: I can play Orbiter. I understand how to get the technicalities to work, advanced transfers to different orbits etc. That software is proven to work. Put it in the hands of my Grandma, though, and all the sudden, What the hell does retro-grade mean? It's not the equipment. It's the operator.

No, I'm not offering a straw man argument. You, on the other hand, are.

[Echnaton]

I have given my arguments for why I don't believe it.

I have already provided my evidence,

Unfortunately your arguments and evidence resolve to...

I've noticed one instance...the only movement appears to be...there appears to be.

That is not an argument, it is a lack of understanding.

[SolusLupus]

No. I don't doubt that. But you're still offering a straw man. Put it this way: I can play Orbiter. I understand how to get the technicalities to work, advanced transfers to different orbits etc. That software is proven to work. Put it in the hands of my Grandma, though, and all the sudden, What the hell does retro-grade mean? It's not the equipment. It's the operator.

Those stupid Chinese.  They couldn't understand anything technical.  It's not like they make high marks when it comes to mathematics...

Oh wait.

Ah well, I'm sure of it:  They're uneducated grandmas.  But yet they're perfect at faking the missions to the world... except for a few internet "geniuses" of course.

Seriously, though, your "grandmother" argument is terrible.  China has plenty of young, energized people willing to prove themselves to their nation.  Your "The Russian Commies Were Evil" is starkly black and white, too, I have to add... it really isn't that simple.

[carpediem]

You all act like you are totally sure China has the means to get into space and do it manned. Prove it. You demand proof from me, I do the same. How do you know China has the ability to get into space? Are your facts based on the data they release?

I'm back everyone! I completely forgot about this website! I've been busy playing Orbiter and working on my capsule and I do have one announcement to make regarding Shenzhou 5.
I went through some footage and found that there is video of the astronaut in Shenzhou five in his cabin in zero-g for over two minutes at a time.

Scratch one hoax theory.

It seems like you've already accepted that China can put a man into space, or have you changed your mind?

[LunarOrbit]

The Vostok had a lot of problems. On Yuri's flight, I'd say the most dangerous one was the fact that the SM wouldn't separate from the CM... In future Russian space missions or in American missions, when has a stage failed to separate?

Rocky Soyuz landing caused module separation failure (USA Today, May 22, 2008)

Last month's botched landing of a Russian capsule returning from the International Space Station was caused by the failure of an equipment module to separate from the capsule on time, a Russian space official said Wednesday.
The Soyuz TMA-11 craft carrying U.S. astronaut Peggy Whitson, Russian cosmonaut Yuri Malenchenko and South Korean bioengineer Yi So-yeon landed hundreds of miles off course when it bounced onto the steppes of northern Kazakhstan April 11.

The three were subjected to severe G-forces, communications were disrupted and Russian officials said they had been in serious danger during the descent.

Alexei Krasnov, who heads Russia's manned space program, said after the Soyuz's separation from the space station, the equipment bay module was supposed to detach, allowing the capsule to enter the atmosphere and descend to Earth smoothly.

That did not happen, he said, and the Soyuz went into a "ballistic" descent.

[LunarOrbit]

Put it this way: I can play Orbiter. I understand how to get the technicalities to work, advanced transfers to different orbits etc. That software is proven to work. Put it in the hands of my Grandma, though, and all the sudden, What the hell does retro-grade mean? It's not the equipment. It's the operator.

So, in other words, you don't doubt that the technology is capable of sending people into orbit, you doubt that the Chinese people are capable of understanding the technology. Blind patriotism and racism often walk hand in hand.

The belief that "only Americans can do this" is somewhat offensive to me, and I'm not even Chinese. Most countries don't have space programs because it is expensive (especially if you are located far from the equator), not because their people are too stupid to understand how to do it. You better hurry up and realize that the Chinese are quite capable when it comes to science and technology, and they can afford to fund the necessary research. Your patriotism/racism is blinding you to a real threat to your (slowly degrading) superiority.

[gwiz]

In future Russian space missions or in American missions, when has a stage failed to separate?

Separation failures still happen.  A NASA scientific payload was lost last year when the payload shroud didn't separate.  There have been at least two occasions when the Shuttle returned to Earth with a payload that should have separated.  Many years ago a NASA launch of an Intelsat comsat failed because the Atlas booster stage failed to separate cleanly.  I remember a Pegasus payload going into the wrong orbit due to a poor stage separation, etc, etc.

[twik]

My proof that China has the ability to put humans into space:

The Chinese people are human beings. If other human beings, from a number of different nations, can figure out how to achieve space flight, I see no reason why being Chinese would prevent their nation from doing so. And, since they have a fair amount of economic power, I see no cost restrictions that would prevent it. Since one other communist country has achieved it, one cannot argue that there is something inherent in the Chinese economic system that prevents it. Therefore, there is a prima facie case that China can send humans into space, just like any other nation with the time, money and inclination.

I think it's you that are making the assumption that "compared to the US and Russia, China has an inherent incapability of achieving space flight, and performing a space walk". This starts to sound a little racist, does it not?

China is hardly your grandmother when it comes to technology.

[ka9q]

Separation failures still happen.  A NASA scientific payload was lost last year when the payload shroud didn't separate.

It happened twice in a row, to the same launcher (Orbital Sciences' Taurus XL). The first shroud jettison failure was in 2009 to the Orbiting Carbon Observatory, followed by the failure last year during the Glory launch attempt.

Repeated failures are rather unusual in aerospace, but they do still happen.

Even the venerable Saturn V wasn't immune to separation problems. Skylab was nearly lost when the micrometeroid shield tore off during first stage flight. Debris also damaged the separation ordnance for the ring between the S-IC and S-II stages, so while the stages separated normally, second plane jettison failed to occur 30 seconds later. Fortunately, the launch had so much margin that it still made orbit carrying the excess mass of the interstage ring; had it been a lunar mission, an abort would have been necessary. The two failed Taurus XL launchers deposited their payloads in the ocean not because the rockets didn't function, but because they did not have enough margin to take their payload fairings all the way into orbit.

[gillianren]

I am quite stunned at your attitude.

I stopped being stunned back on the old board last year when he accused me of being an HB.  The fact is, his arguments sound exactly like those of someone who just wants to be special.  Now, I know that the fact that I don't have your education in the sciences, so I assume that you know more than I do on the subject.  Vincent assumes that, somehow, he still knows things you do not.  He wants to be special.

[LunarOrbit]

Vincent assumes that, somehow, he still knows things you do not.  He wants to be special.

He assumes he knows more than other people based solely on what he has learned by playing video games and watching YouTube videos. Real experts have years of university and/or practical experience under their belt. And I agree that he just wants to be special, which is why he posts under his real name (something I advise strongly against, especially if you're a teenager).