Author Topic: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched  (Read 44523 times)

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1883
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #300 on: January 09, 2025, 08:23:15 PM »
The forum doesn't have that capability, unfortunately. That's something I had looked into for Najak before imposing the "no new topics" restriction.

Jason and Jay have made good points. I guess none of us are forced to take part, and there are those claimants who might have new or interesting ideas or just want clarification and are acting in good faith. We should be seen as inviting and cordial and open to questions, otherwise perceptions shift to us being a non-inclusive club. The forum is also self-moderating. There's little foul mouthed abuse, and we hold each other to account when casting aspersions on claimants. I've been pulled up for remarks I have made on a couple of occasions by other members. This sheds good light on us. We want to avoid the aggressive nature and block and ban that less desirable hoax proponents operate.

Also, there's the non-STEM aspect. A test would preclude membership to those who have proficiency in other fields

I have set out my thoughts regarding najak calling it moon hoax theory, namely the theory was proposed by Bill and Ralph. Those initial claims have been debunked. Ergo, the proposed theory is wrong, case closed.

The shifting goal posts in threads and the constant evolution with new claims is tiresome though. A majority of claimants can quite easily be shown that Bill and Ralph were outliers in many aspects. It's a case of how do you close the door quickly on some, and not others who simply have questions.

The current format does have merits such as education for us, and a record of the unreasonable behaviour of others.

It just bugs me that the thousands of people involved in putting those astronauts on the moon, and let's not forget the returning them to Earth part, are besmirched by the arrogance and self-aggrandizing of others.

👍

I'm OK on my laptop with a browser setting of 125%, any higher and I get scroll bars. When I connect my laptop to my monitor, I'm fine.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2025, 08:49:35 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Zakalwe

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1670
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #301 on: January 10, 2025, 03:27:57 AM »


Larger font would be better, as my eyesight is getting poorer too.

Assuming you are using Windows: Hold CTRL down and scroll your mouse wheel to adjust the browser font (or alternative controls to suit your OS or controls).
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1745
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #302 on: January 10, 2025, 09:20:46 AM »
He's protesting about the injustice of it all on Facebook.

Boohoo.

What name does he post under?

Brian Knox on the The Apollo Moon Hoax (No Flat Earthers) group.

Oh lord, he is actually asking about the C-rock photo...
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Mag40

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 626
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #303 on: January 10, 2025, 09:40:22 AM »
He's protesting about the injustice of it all on Facebook.

Boohoo.

What name does he post under?

Brian Knox on the The Apollo Moon Hoax (No Flat Earthers) group.

Oh lord, he is actually asking about the C-rock photo...
There's something wrong. I mean with HB bingo! I've got loads of entries but still can't get a line. Very frustrating.

I recall TBFDU did some facepalming video about this because he got hold of a version of this supposedly "original" that had the C(-rock of shite) on it. Of course as part of the ongoing blunder, he didn't bother obtaining the image preceding it, which doesn't have and has never had the C on.

In reality, he obtained (as far as he knew) a press released photo of this image. This would appear to be where the dodgy print occurred (assuming he hasn't been conned). Of course nowhere does he prove the same photo is the one released to the magazine around the same time without the C on.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/50536828@N05/4643351218/




« Last Edit: January 10, 2025, 09:54:19 AM by Mag40 »

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 4018
    • Clavius
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #304 on: January 10, 2025, 10:05:59 AM »
As far as Steve Troy was able to determine, the mark appeared on only one dupe master made or used in 1997. It got used a lot, apparently, but you can certainly find dupes in circulation before and after that don't have the mark. This is the stupidest claim ever.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1883
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #305 on: January 10, 2025, 11:18:33 AM »
As far as Steve Troy was able to determine, the mark appeared on only one dupe master made or used in 1997. It got used a lot, apparently, but you can certainly find dupes in circulation before and after that don't have the mark. This is the stupidest claim ever.

I occasionally see what JW is up too, and saw this video a while ago. I watched it today, after Jason's and Mag's posts. He's still banging on about the C-rock. JW mentions Steve Troy.

To save anyone the 3+ minutes of unwraping, go straight to 3:22.



It is the most ludicrous claim, and anyone who saw Ralph Rene talking about this must have seen...

The guy's clearly off his crumpet.



« Last Edit: January 10, 2025, 11:23:51 AM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3256
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #306 on: January 10, 2025, 01:31:41 PM »
As far as Steve Troy was able to determine, the mark appeared on only one dupe master made or used in 1997. It got used a lot, apparently, but you can certainly find dupes in circulation before and after that don't have the mark. This is the stupidest claim ever.

I occasionally see what JW is up too, and saw this video a while ago. I watched it today, after Jason's and Mag's posts. He's still banging on about the C-rock. JW mentions Steve Troy.

To save anyone the 3+ minutes of unwraping, go straight to 3:22.



It is the most ludicrous claim, and anyone who saw Ralph Rene talking about this must have seen...

The guy's clearly off his crumpet.
We can add another thing that Jarrah isn't good at, opening bubble envelopes. I didn't see who sent it to him, nor hear for that matter.  I wonder instead of shipping the image, why not just download a free copy?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1883
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #307 on: January 10, 2025, 01:46:00 PM »
We can add another thing that Jarrah isn't good at, opening bubble envelopes. I didn't see who sent it to him, nor hear for that matter.  I wonder instead of shipping the image, why not just download a free copy?

I am not au fait with the finer details of C-rock.

I understand Rene saw the C on the rock and claimed it was a prop label but the stage hands forgot to place the label downwards. The C appears in later duplicates of the photo that were used for press releases, and the C is possibly due to the presence of lint in the duplication process. I assume JW wants to show that the C appeared at a date before that posited by Steve Troy.

Mag40 has posted a link to the photo that was released soon after the Apollo 16 landings, and an explanation to JW's motive for obtaining the photo.

In reality, he obtained (as far as he knew) a press released photo of this image. This would appear to be where the dodgy print occurred (assuming he hasn't been conned). Of course nowhere does he prove the same photo is the one released to the magazine around the same time without the C on.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/50536828@N05/4643351218/
« Last Edit: January 10, 2025, 03:30:49 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline onebigmonkey

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1718
  • ALSJ Clown
    • Apollo Hoax Debunked
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #308 on: January 11, 2025, 02:12:14 AM »
I think Jarrah wanted an original for the same reason U do: it's contemporary with no taint from modern tech.

I did a page on the C rock  :)

https://onebigmonkey.com/itburns/c-rock/crock.html

Offline TimberWolfAu

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #309 on: January 12, 2025, 08:52:22 PM »
Oh lord, he is actually asking about the C-rock photo...

I'm having a chuckle at the moment.

Najak had put up one of his 'this doesn't work according to me, so in the interest of honesty and integrity, you should delete your post' comments on some complaints about Apollo 8. The response from the mods? They deleted Najaks comment, citing that they did so to maintain the integrity and honesty of the page :)

Nice to see his maintaining his scatter gun method of posting new topics about where Apollo didn't work correctly (according to him), wonder how long he'll manage to keep that up before they get sick of him?

On the side. I have a thought as to what might have been the reason for the "unexpected" temperature change, but I can't see any references to this occurring for Apollo 8 as it is.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 4018
    • Clavius
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #310 on: January 13, 2025, 10:02:37 AM »
The rate at which something loses heat through radiation depends more than you think on the amount of radiant heat it is simultaneously receiving. Objects in Earth orbit lose heat at a slower rate (and thereby generally maintain a higher temperature) simply because Earth is brighter; it reflects more light back into space than the Moon. That reflected light is heavy on infrared wavelengths, but in the Moon's case the albedo difference matters a lot.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1883
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #311 on: January 13, 2025, 11:20:25 AM »
As physicists we examine blackbody radiation to introduce us to the ultraviolet catastrophe and how classical electromagnetism has limits at blue and UV frequencies. Blackbody radiation is very counter unitive, and as one explores EM radiation further (Maxwell) it really is not a simple problem. The physics of EM waves (and low energy electrons) interacting with electrons in metals is very involved. This looks like another physicists are not engineers problem.

There have been lots of claims pertaining to 'it would get too hot!' My memory is hazy, but I recall a discussion about infrared absorption by the Apollo space craft, and how this depended on wavelength and the angle of the incident radiation. In which case we have a calculus problem. Funny how lots of engineering ends up with calculus.

Again memory is hazy; but did the Apollo craft need to rotate in space for reasons of temperature control, and did the astronauts complain that the LM was becoming too cold on the lunar surface?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 4018
    • Clavius
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #312 on: January 13, 2025, 11:44:56 AM »
Blackbody radiation is very counter intuitive
Quite.

Quote
...as one explores EM radiation further (Maxwell) it really is not a simple problem. The physics of EM waves (and low energy electrons) interacting with electrons in metals is very involved.
Indeed, the notion that metals are the best conductors of heat and the best conductors of electricity for special electron reasons is kind of fascinating.

Quote
There have been lots of claims pertaining to 'it would get too hot!' My memory is hazy, but I recall a discussion about infrared absorption by the Apollo space craft, and how this depended on wavelength and the angle of the incident radiation. In which case we have a calculus problem. Funny how lots of engineering ends up with calculus.
I remember some idiot claiming that physics was basically just applied calculus when what he should have said was that engineering is basically just applied calculus. But yes, we have mathematical formalisms and some hacky approximations to reason about "view factors." And yes, this was actually simulated on a computer for the LM, using a predictably small number of modeled surfaces. To my knowledge it was the first use of computational radiometry in space engineering.

Quote
Again memory is hazy; but did the Apollo craft need to rotate in space for reasons of temperature control, and did the astronauts complain that the LM was becoming too cold on the lunar surface?
Both true. Passive thermal control in the CSM is mostly about reducing thermally induced stress in the assembly—a purely engineering problem. When you build something and you let half of it get very hot and the other half get very cold, you run into all kinds of problems and stresses. One answer is to rotate the stack at a rate best calculated to even out the temperature. For spacecraft like geostationary communication satellites, there are active systems that move heat around, since those spacecraft have pointing constraints inherent to their mission and can't be slow-roasted by rotation. The CMs that were docked to Skylab for a long period were actually painted white (i.e., with a different passive thermal control strategy) since they couldn't rotate either.

The LM had a peculiar problem in that the mass distribution for pitch stability put a lot of equipment in the back and the cockpit in the front. The plan was always to land with the sun at the crew's backs so that the spacecraft shadow could be a visual cue for the pilot. But this means that all that bulky equipment is the part of the ship taking the direct sunlight, and the cabin is on the shady side of the ship.

Part of the qualification for new spacecraft designs is vacuum roasting. You put the spacecraft in a vacuum chamber with massive radiant heaters on the walls. You then selectively roast the spacecraft on one side or the other to see what happens.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2025, 12:02:19 PM by JayUtah »
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1883
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #313 on: January 13, 2025, 12:36:40 PM »
Indeed, the notion that metals are the best conductors of heat and the best conductors of electricity for special electron reasons is kind of fascinating.

The whole phonon (not a typo) and electron contributions to material properties was a monster, most of 2nd Year was solid state/magnetic material/dielectric and EM. We were introduced to the k-vectors and began to apply complex numbers to an increasing extent; which I found fascinating

Quote
I remember some idiot claiming that physics was basically just applied calculus when he should have said was that engineering is basically just applied calculus.

I had forgotten about that. That was an unintended touché moment by me. Seriously, both fields heavily rely on calculus, but the rest of your post (e.g. passive control in CSM) underlines the divergence between the fields. You belong to a field of professionals that build real systems that include humans in the system, I belong to a field that examines esoteric/applied science problems. The twain meets, but I would never claim I could build a spacecraft.

I know it was a waste of time, but this was the point I tried to make to najak: we have engineers, enthusiasts and other specialists here, we know the limits of our expertise and draw upon each others knowledge. He would not cut the mustard with 'it's not feasible' or 'but this is basic physics.'

Quote
But yes, we have mathematical formalisms and some hacky approximations to reason about "view factors."

Hacky. You just need to look at Quantum Electrodynamics and the adding and subtracting of infinities that caused Dirac so much agony, or how GR tends to infinity in highly curved space times but we can still manage to interpret those infinities.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2025, 02:35:55 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1745
Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #314 on: January 13, 2025, 02:14:48 PM »
Blackbody radiation is very counter intuitive

A statement that can apply to many fields of science and engineering, which many people who insist on using terms like 'basic physics' don't seem to grasp.

I'm not an expert by any means but I did have my little science brain entertained when I changed the door of my garage from a white one to a black one. It faces the sun most of the day. Now the inside of my garage gets like a sauna even in winter if it's a clear sunny day, and if my car is iced up on the driveway the end facing the garage door is often clear of ice before the end facing the sun!

Quote
Again memory is hazy; but did the Apollo craft need to rotate in space for reasons of temperature control, and did the astronauts complain that the LM was becoming too cold on the lunar surface?

Indeed. And on Apollo 13 Jim Lovell recalls they made a mistake putting the shades up on the windows to block the sun so they could sleep. Without the majority of the electronics operating the combination of the lack of heat from the internal systems and the blocked incoming solar radiation caused the interior temperature to drop and, as he tells it, it never really improved.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain