Proof Apollo was hoaxed redux

[ka9q]

Talking of heat transfer, He Who Shall Not Be Named has recently presented Rene's calculations that 'show' the PLSS needed to contain 48 kg of water to cool the astronauts 'on a J-type mission.'

For just a second I thought about listing all the mistakes in that analysis. But then I realized my hands would fall off from typing long before I was done.

[Luke Pemberton]

Even very active people burn most of their energy in their basal metabolism. 1/3 of that is just to drive the Na+/K+ pumps in every cell.

Just out of curiosity if anyone is interested:

Na+/K+ pumps animation.

[ka9q]

I learned about this while studying neurology. As an EE I had to keep reminding myself that in biology there are several kinds of current flows, and they do not include the usual kind (electron flow) that I'm already familiar with. They include both positive (Na+, K+, Ca++, Mg++) and negative (Cl-) ion flows. Because of the non-equilibrium maintained by the pumps, these ions usually flow spontaneously when a channel opens for them, even when they flow "uphill" against the charge gradient. E.g., when a K+ channel opens, K+ will flow out of the cell and make the inside even more negatively charged because there's a much higher concentration of K+ inside than outside because of the pumps.

I did not realize right away that these ion pumps exist in every cell, not just neurons, so they must have evolved very early for mechanisms other than making nerves work. And true to the way evolution works like a third world junkyard, repurposing one mechanism for completely different purposes, some organisms have evolved special nerve cells that they use as offensive weapons, e.g., the electric eel. Fascinating stuff.

[Luke Pemberton]

And true to the way evolution works like a third world junkyard, repurposing one mechanism for completely different purposes, some organisms have evolved special nerve cells that they use as offensive weapons, e.g., the electric eel. Fascinating stuff.

You might get into trouble with a biologist for your description of evolution. You might want to add the word 'with' in between 'evolved' and 'special' so not to draw the fire of my colleague. 

I have to concur with your fascination for such topics, I have become interested in evolutionary biology recently. I find it absolutely fascinating and also the topic of a real hoax, Piltdown Man. I guess the HBs could argue that Piltdown man fooled the establishment for years, so why is Apollo an exception. One of the YT regulars used to make such an argument.

[ka9q]

The best answer to the Piltdown Man accusation is to ask who uncovered the hoax: conspiracy theorists with no scientific training or understanding, or other scientists?

[gillianren]

And how soon were the first doubts voiced by other scientists?  Because it's a lot sooner than most people realize.

[Luke Pemberton]

The best answer to the Piltdown Man accusation is to ask who uncovered the hoax: conspiracy theorists with no scientific training or understanding, or other scientists?

A point that encapsulates my utter contempt for those that peddle the theory. The great Sensei Kaysing made a closing remark in his book, 'it will take many minds to solve the hoax theory once and for all.' However, it is quite apparent in the minds of some that only the 'intellect' of the conspiratorially aware will solve the hoax conundrum. I deplore the arrogance (egos) that fuels the unwillingness to explore the shortcomings of their arguments. I struggle with the idea that some have so little self awareness that they can profess to be an expert in every scientific field they encounter. Bob sums up my own feelings in his closing comments section.

And how soon were the first doubts voiced by other scientists?  Because it's a lot sooner than most people realize.

A lot sooner than I originally thought. I thought  the hoax was uncovered in the 1950s, but this date appears to be when chemical tests were made that revealed chemical staining. A quick check demonstrates that doubt was cast immediately. Pesky scientists, they just can't be fooled. 

[Rob260259]

As it is quiet here at the moment <

Yep. May be time for an old video. A lot of questions regarding the Apollo program. And some music. :-)

[JayUtah]

The heat of sublimation is actually the governing property, and the heat of sublimation for water is prodigious.  The astronauts actually complained about getting too cold.

Naturally Rene's computations are unbelievably ignorant, but we all know that.  Not only does he get the arithmetic wrong, he gets the physics process wrong and makes irrelevant assumptions.  And naturally our little Australian ignoramus can't do any better.

Nickel porous-plate sublimators are essentially commodity technology and have been used continuously to cool space suits used by all nations for decades.  To somehow tie them to an Apollo-only hoax is pretty darned out of touch.

[smartcooky]

And how soon were the first doubts voiced by other scientists?  Because it's a lot sooner than most people realize.

Right from the off there was an article published in "Nature" (in 1913, one year after the "discovery") which called it for what it was; an ape mandible combined with a human skull.

[Luke Pemberton]

The heat of sublimation is actually the governing property, and the heat of sublimation for water is prodigious.  The astronauts actually complained about getting too cold.

I found the relevant document about the LCVG and gained a better insight into its operation. Indeed, sublimation of ice is used to transfer the energy to the vacuum as I first thought but needed to check as I wanted to get my facts straight. A latent heat of 2.85 MJ/kg it is fairly prodigious.

I am sure the LCVG and PLSS have been discussed before and the complaint of the astronauts was discussed there. I cannot find a link, but I do remember that discussion. Do you have a reference to their complaints Jay, or is it anecdotal?

Naturally Rene's computations are unbelievably ignorant, but we all know that.  Not only does he get the arithmetic wrong, he gets the physics process wrong and makes irrelevant assumptions.  And naturally our little Australian ignoramus can't do any better.

I strongly believe that Rene had a world view that would have taken substantial shifting. Once he had a particular idea he had a canny knack of obfuscation, using a few equations and a bit of physics he had read about. He could make himself sound erudite to the less well informed with his calculations, as though he was a worldly sage.

Blind faith of others work is not critical thinking, and is about as far removed from science as one could possibly be. It seems to me the dice are loaded. What Sensei Kaysing and Sensei Rene said was the whole truth and nothing but the truth and any amount of ill conceived logic will be used to 'confirm' that truth. I thought they were critical thinkers and we were the sheeple?

Nickel porous-plate sublimators are essentially commodity technology and have been used continuously to cool space suits used by all nations for decades.  To somehow tie them to an Apollo-only hoax is pretty darned out of touch.

I took a visit to the National Space Centre recently, and they a wonderful display of Russian space suits from the time that Helen Sharman boarded the Mir. I spoke to a curator and he confirmed that the technology was comparable to that used by the Apollo astonauts.

[raven]

One thing I've wondered is why the Orlan suits are that light tan (like a lightly toasted marshmallow) compared to the bright white of NASA's EVA suits. Can anyone tell me the reason for the difference?

[Glom]

One thing I've wondered is why the Orlan suits are that light tan (like a lightly toasted marshmallow) compared to the bright white of NASA's EVA suits. Can anyone tell me the reason for the difference?

The colour is better for green screening.

[raven]

One thing I've wondered is why the Orlan suits are that light tan (like a lightly toasted marshmallow) compared to the bright white of NASA's EVA suits. Can anyone tell me the reason for the difference?

The colour is better for green screening.

Ha ha, and I suppose the curator above was simply earning his NASA shill pay-cheque. I am serious though, I really want to know why.

[Luke Pemberton]

One thing I've wondered is why the Orlan suits are that light tan (like a lightly toasted marshmallow) compared to the bright white of NASA's EVA suits. Can anyone tell me the reason for the difference?

I was thinking the same thing when looking at the suits, it never occurred to me to ask why they should be light tan. Maybe it was Soviet fashion at the time