JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[Chew]

Am I? Do you have an example of a professional assassin killing someone in front of a large crowd?

Obviously by your question no one has ever been killed by a professional assassin while present in front of a large crowd.
How many people are necessary to qualify as a "large crowd"?

Do you have an example of a professional assassin killing somebody in front of a large crowd or not? You said I was wrong. Can you provide a counterexample or not?

Claiming professional assassins killed JFK is an insult to professional assassins. Do professional assassins routinely require 6 shots to kill one man in a slow moving uncovered car? Most conspiracy theorists have a gaggle of assassins pumping lead into the limo and half their shots miss. Conspiracy theorists always harp on and on about what a terrible shot Oswald was yet when they present their theoretical course of fire their hypothetical professional assassins miss JFK multiple times and miss the entire limo at least once.

[BazBear]

How about LBJ telling a lie, to set scene for murder. He tells the American Public that the United States Navy was attacked while in neutral waters in the bay of Tonkin by North Vietnamese torpedo boats and asks for war. This lie is responsible for over 2,000,000 deaths or people assassinated in front of our eyes, and most people never figured out who was doing the killing in time to stop these deaths. Most people still have no clue to this day...at all.

So did some of your mysterious assassins end up hiding in the Gulf Of Tonkin? Otherwise, I can't see how it relates to the JFK assassination.

[Chew]

Long before South Park called it the Chewbacca Defense the Greeks called it Ignoratio elenchi.

[profmunkin]

Map of Dealey Plaza is not mine.
I modified it then added colored dots to represent witnesses locations by testimony that declaired where they believed the origin of shots were.
Note this includes testimony from WC, FBI, SHERIF and SHAW TRIAL.
Blue Grassy Knoll
Red TSBD
Violet - the witnesses actually gave testimony supporting both locations
*There was guesses made as to exact locations of some witnesses.

[Chew]

Larger map if you'd like: [gifv]BBjlj[/gifv]

[Chew]

Just to start with, Newman said he thought the shots came from behind him. Here he is indicating where he thought they came from:

[Chew]

Don't forget Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman on the 5th floor of the TSBD who all said the shots came from above them. Norman even said he heard the bolt cycling and the ejected shells hitting the floor.

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.

[Jason Thompson]

Should what WC says happened in Dealey Plaza be in accord with what can be corroborated by the witnesses?

As you have been told numerous times, the fact that there are many contradictory witness accounts is normal in such a confused and crowded situation.

I think it may well be possible to illustrate how and I intend to prove it when I am ready. This is not a stall it is getting my ducks in a row.

No, it is a stall. It is evident that you have formulated an idea with no supporting evidence and are now desperately trying to find some. The fact that one person shooting JFK from in front and Connally from behind is utterly impossible hasn't even made you pause for thought before presenting that as your working hypothesis, has it?

Ongoing refusal to acknowledge the duplication of the two shots and their effects noted yet again. It is clear that you are simply afraid to actually address this, because it will undermine your whole premise. Fact: the wounds described in the WC report can be caused by two bullets fired from the TSBD.

[Kiwi]

"Mr. SPECTER - Did you tell the police officials at the time you made this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast?
Mr. ROWLAND - At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there...

Interesting isn't it, sees man with high powered rifle, on 6th floor of the TSBD, but on the wrong side of building, surprise. Surprise, he also sees another man hanging out of the the "snipers nest" window at the same time.

I'm a little confused.  Are you referring to one of the two Negro men who are shown on page 66 of the Warren Report, in the enlargement of a photo taken by Thomas C. Dillard, chief photographer of the Dallas Morning News?  Because they are looking out the windows directly underneath the "sniper's nest," not in it, and I believe it is one of them who said he heard shells hitting the floor above him.

There was also another Negro man in the next pair of windows to the left of the two men.

Dillard and Robert H. Jackson, staff photographer of the Dallas Times Herald, sound like fairly good witnesses to me. 

Howard L. Brennan also saw a man with a rifle on the 6th floor (the "sniper's nest") and people watching the motorcade immediately below on the 5th floor.

Perhaps you should read what they said.

[profmunkin]

I'm a little confused. 

Yes your are.
Perhaps you should read the transcript.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rowland_a.htm
"Mr. ROWLAND - No; not in that window, and I looked back every few seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so I could point him out to my wife.
Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time.
Representative FORD - At what time was that?
Mr. ROWLAND - At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.
Representative FORD - Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.
Representative FORD - I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?
Mr. ROWLAND - The west, southwest corner.
Representative FORD - And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?
Mr. ROWLAND - The east, southeast corner.
Representative FORD - Southeast corner. On the same floor?
Mr. ROWLAND - On the same floor. "

Rolwand saw a man with a high powered rifle, with a high powered scope on SW corner 6th floor,
at about the same time he saw a negro man hanging out the window from the "snipers lair" on the SE corner of the 6th floor.

If you read the transcripts you will know that this was Bonnie Ray Williams eating his lunch until 12:20 or 12:25, before going down to the 5th floor.  In case you are wondering Williams did not see or hear anything from the 6th floor, Oswald or anyone or anything, while on the 6th floor or 5th floor, before, during or after the assassination.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm
"Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything upstairs at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything."

During the time of the assasination Williams was hanging out the 5th floor window, just a few feet from the "sniper" on the 6th floor, and he never detected the shots were coming from just above his head, or hear the bolt or expended shells hit the floor.
The shots were spaced: Bham...Bham.Bham the last two "rather close togeher"

[profmunkin]

Don't forget Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman on the 5th floor of the TSBD who all said the shots came from above them. Norman even said he heard the bolt cycling and the ejected shells hitting the floor.

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.

Read the transcripts.
Bonnie Ray Williams, did not hear anything from the 6th floor. PERIOD.

James Jarmin Jr. claimed the shots came from below and right (grassy knoll), did not hear anything from the 6th floor.PERIOD.

Harold Norman never said he heard any shots coming from the 6th floor. He said "sounded like shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle".

They all said the shots were spaced Bham...Bham.Bham

[profmunkin]

All this time and 31 pages of posts proclaiming a conspiracy and you don't have a hypothesis about what actually happened?  Much less a defensible hypothesis that  includes an explanation of where the shooter(s) were.   

Typical conspiracist thinking, alas.  "I don't know what's right, just that the Official Story (TM) is wrong!"  Usually with ridiculously poor research.

what do you mean by Official Story (TM)

[Chew]

Rolwand saw a man with a high powered rifle, with a high powered scope on SW corner 6th floor,
at about the same time he saw a negro man hanging out the window from the "snipers lair" on the SE corner of the 6th floor.

Bonnie Ray Williams, who you just quoted for the purpose of identifying the direction of the shots, said,

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not.

If you read the transcripts you will know that this was Bonnie Ray Williams eating his lunch until 12:20 or 12:25, before going down to the 5th floor.

If you correctly read the transcripts you will know Williams did not eat his lunch at the southeast corner. And by his estimate he finished no later than 12:12 then went down to the 5th floor.

Mr. McCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12.
Mr. McCLOY. Just 12?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner?
Mr. WILLIAMS. In the southeast--that is--the southeast. I really don't remember if I seen anything-- it would be just the top edge of the window, as I remember.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.

In case you are wondering Williams did not see or hear anything from the 6th floor, Oswald or anyone or anything, while on the 6th floor or 5th floor, before, during or after the assassination.

Absolutely! He did not see the man Rowland claimed to have seen in the SW corner.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm
"Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything upstairs at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything."

During the time of the assasination Williams was hanging out the 5th floor window, just a few feet from the "sniper" on the 6th floor, and he never detected the shots were coming from just above his head, or hear the bolt or expended shells hit the floor.
The shots were spaced: Bham...Bham.Bham the last two "rather close togeher"

He said he thought the shots came from inside the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we were on cement fell on my head.
Mr. BALL. You say cement fell on your head?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something from the old building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If you want to know my exact words, I could tell you.

[Kiwi]

I'm a little confused. 

Yes your are.

Thank you for your answer.  I appreciate being put right because I'm a pedant who dislikes being wrong.  Pedant is a bad word in some quarters, but I think there's nothing wrong with it -- without pedantry you don't get accuracy.

It was very pleasant to get a prompt reply after asking only once, so thank you again.

A month ago I put a considerable effort into posts 103 and 104 in this thread, and you didn't answer two simple questions about the Zapruder film and Warren Report.
http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=67.msg1152#msg1152
I wondered why not and was a little disappointed, because those post were about four times harder to produce than normal because I was quite ill.  New meds started five days ago have helped a little and returned things to nearer normal.

Back in October I had to give up on a particularly clownish hoax-believer at the Randi Forum who did the Gish Gallop and regularly did not answer questions that were asked three, four and five times.  To me he was a waste of time.

I feel sorry for Jason Thompson who has repeatedly asked you something about the duplication of two shots.  Why don't you put him out of his misery and answer?  You're not becoming like that other clown are you?

[profmunkin]

Just to start with, Newman said he thought the shots came from behind him. Here he is indicating where he thought they came from:

Have no idea what you have posted and it is not evidence of anything.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/newmwsh.htm
From Shaw Trial
"Q: Do you have any impression as to the direction from which the shots came?
A: Yes, sir. From the sound of the shots, the report of the rifle or whatever it was, it sounded like they were coming directly behind from where I was standing."

Newman was standing by the Stemmons freeway sign, as he had indicated the shots were coming from directly behind, he would have to been facing the grassy knoll during the assassination to have the shots originate from the TSBD.