JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[profmunkin]

Profmunkin, none of these posts seem to advance your proposition of a conspiracy.  This has been a long tedious thread, please  give us a theory that would incorporate your belief or go away and bother some other forum.

You are right

[ka9q]

Profmunkin, this is really getting tedious. Now you're mischaracterizing even the testimony you selectively quote:

We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side of the area....

"particularly the right side of the area" - this is the knoll area.

Are you blind? The phrase right before the phrase you highlighted says towards the rear. No, that's not the knoll area. Right and to the rear is the TSBD!!

[ka9q]

None of us could determine the origin of the shots, and no shots were fired by any agent."

That's a quote completely out of context, and you know it. He meant that none of the agents could determine the precise origin of the shots by actually seeing someone shoot a gun. However, nearly all of them thought the shots came from somewhere behind and to the right of them, i.e., from the direction of the TSBD. This is supported by the famous Altgens photograph taken between shot 2 (the JFK neck shot) and shot 3 (the JFK head shot) showing several agents on the followup car turned sharply around and looking behind them.

Profmunkin, just what do you hope to accomplish here? It is past obvious to everyone that you're simply not interested in the truth, and your lame attempts at misquoting and mischaracterizing the testimony are invariably caught by everyone else here.

[profmunkin]

Fact is of the 12 service men in the limo and followup car;
3 - thought right rear - none said the TSBD - none of them saw anything unusual, none of them commented on the direction of subsequent reports. There was only a dozen TSBD windows open, not one person detected movement in a window, a man with a rifle, rapidly moving the rifle to eject a shell, re-aiming, firing, flash, puff of smoke, rapidly moving the rifle to eject a shell, aiming, firing, flash, puff of smoke, then moving to escape?
Could they not see all the witnesses looking up and pointing toward the 6th floor window?
Oh wait, there wasn't any! Not even Norman, Jarmin or Williams said they looked up.

1 - said at first he thought behind, but on second and third shot he was sure it was from the right or right front.

3  - said knoll, also where people were falling to the ground to escape the rifle fire.

5 - had no comment as far as any direction for the rifle reports, including "none of us could determine the source of the shots"

Now explain why Greer said last shots "may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it" and Connally said last shot was like someone clapping their hands real hard, interesting that Kellerman likened the last double bang to a plane breaking the sound barrier.

Why did the report change from the vague firecracker sound we had been hearing from so many witnesses to causing "a little concussion" and a very loud clap, maybe even a sonic boom?

[profmunkin]

Interesting questions from the WC about the assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law? Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD - Have. you ever been in any trouble with the police or
did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.

Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.

These 3 men are the only witnesses I have found in about 100 testimonies, that were asked any question about past legal troubles.

[profmunkin]

Profmunkin, this is really getting tedious. Now you're mischaracterizing even the testimony you selectively quote:

We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side of the area....

"particularly the right side of the area" - this is the knoll area.

Are you blind? The phrase right before the phrase you highlighted says towards the rear. No, that's not the knoll area. Right and to the rear is the TSBD!!

If you read the transcipt you would know that Bennett is referering to his actions after the 3rd shot, by then the knoll will be to his right and rear as they sped out of Dealey Plaza.
" A second (third shot total) shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head. I immediately hollered "he's hit'' and reached for the AR-15 located on the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked-up the AR-I5. We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side of the area."

[Jason Thompson]

There was only a dozen TSBD windows open, not one person detected movement in a window, a man with a rifle, rapidly moving the rifle to eject a shell, re-aiming, firing, flash, puff of smoke, rapidly moving the rifle to eject a shell, aiming, firing, flash, puff of smoke, then moving to escape?

And how long does it take to look at the face of a building with 49 windows, notice which are open, which ones have people in them (Oswald was not the only person looking out a window) and which of those men has a rifle, or is moving to escape rather than just ducking out of the way in response to hearing the shots, from that distance, and all while being shot at?

Not even Norman, Jarmin or Williams said they looked up.

Why would they look up at the ceiling of the room they were in?

5 - had no comment as far as any direction for the rifle reports, including "none of us could determine the source of the shots"

I suppose it's not even worth pointing out that only a few days ago you were demanding we provide examples of witnesses who were not able to say where the shots came from due to acoustics, nor that you have gone from not even remotely considering the echo business plausible to using it to explain why some witnesses did think the shots came from the direction of the TSBD. I suppose it would be equally pointless asking you to explain why they are more likely to be in error than those who said the shots came from the knoll....

Why did the report change from the vague firecracker sound we had been hearing from so many witnesses to causing "a little concussion" and a very loud clap, maybe even a sonic boom?

Leaving aside the fact that rifle bullets are supersonic and therefore do in fact create a sonic boom, and that where you are standing in relation to a passing bullet will make a difference, do you have any idea how much noise an exploding skull makes?

[ka9q]

If you read the transcipt you would know that Bennett is referering to his actions after the 3rd shot, by then the knoll will be to his right and rear as they sped out of Dealey Plaza.

Give me a break. Their statements are perfectly clear and consistent with the Altgens photograph taken just after the second shot. Several follow-up car agents are looking to their right and almost completely behind them, directly at the southeast corner of the TSBD. This includes Hickey in the rear seat and both agents on the right running board (Ready and Landis). McIntyre on the left running board is turning to his right. Bennet is not visible, as Altgens' view of him was obstructed by Dave Powers.

Several spectators have their heads turned back toward the Depository too. Doesn't it seem odd that people who had gathered and waited for hours to see the President would turn away from him just as he passed? They would need a very good reason to do that, something very unusual and attention-getting. A gun fired repeatedly from a window in the TSBD would fit the bill nicely, don't you think?

And I see no one looking at the Grassy Knoll.

I ask again, just what do you think you can accomplish here?

[twik]

Interesting questions from the WC about the assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law? Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD - Have. you ever been in any trouble with the police or
did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.

Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.

These 3 men are the only witnesses I have found in about 100 testimonies, that were asked any question about past legal troubles.

And why do you think this is relevant to anything?

[Echnaton]

These 3 men are the only witnesses I have found in about 100 testimonies, that were asked any question about past legal troubles.

Again it is your interpretation and weighing of evidence that is in question.  Things like this that are thrown out, without context or reference to supporting a theory, enforce the idea that you are just just a internet crank engaging in FUD mongering.

[profmunkin]

I suppose it's not even worth pointing out that only a few days ago you were demanding we provide examples of witnesses who were not able to say where the shots came from due to acoustics, nor that you have gone from not even remotely considering the echo business plausible to using it to explain why some witnesses did think the shots came from the direction of the TSBD. I suppose it would be equally pointless asking you to explain why they are more likely to be in error than those who said the shots came from the knoll....

Leaving aside the fact that rifle bullets are supersonic and therefore do in fact create a sonic boom, and that where you are standing in relation to a passing bullet will make a difference, do you have any idea how much noise an exploding skull makes?

Because quick movements are more easily detected, guided by a flash, the smoke and the sound, but these trained professionals could detect nothing.
Some of them said they knew it was a rifle shot, Kellerman said he heard JFK call out that he had been hit, most said they saw JFK in distress, they had 4-6 seconds to react, only one of them said he even started to make a move to protect JFK but was recalled.

While the SS moved instantly to protect LBJ, the SS did not protect JFK.

Concerning the volume of the sound, the limo was considerably further away from TSBD on later shots then the first one, but the succeeding shots became louder. They had to be getting closer to the source.

JFK head wound is described by a few witnesses, none of them described it as loud. More like a sickening thud.

If you consider the witnesses closest to the limo, knoll area and on viaduct, if you exclude the occupants of the cars.
17 witnesses say reports came from the knoll.

So far I have found 14 witnesses that were located between the knoll and the street, Elm, that were not called to testify to the WC. Two that did testify, Hudson testified to shot originating from the Knoll and Zapruder with conflicted testimony "I also thought it came from behind me"

But they did call to testify under oath, 2 pigeon watchers located a block to the North of the TSBD on Houston street, that never even had a glimpse of the motorcade.

[twik]

Do you think that JFK actually called out he was hit? Please answer, yes or no.

[profmunkin]

These 3 men are the only witnesses I have found in about 100 testimonies, that were asked any question about past legal troubles.

Again it is your interpretation and weighing of evidence that is in question.  Things like this that are thrown out, without context or reference to supporting a theory, enforce the idea that you are just just a internet crank engaging in FUD mongering.

Yes it is my interpretation of it.
"internet crank" that is actually evaluating the evidence.
You don't like my interpretation, you need to blame the WC for allowing the vast maority of testimony, FBI, Sheriff and SS reports to exist as vague descriptions and statements, open to wide intrepretation.

The insinuation of trouble with the law is additional circumstantial evidence against TSBD story, in this case showing that the key witnesses may have been coerced into testimonies compliant with WC story, but even with this pressure, Jarmin refused to yield to it, Williams emphatically said he heard "nothing" from the 6th floor. Norman caved and said he heard the bolt and hulls, but did not say he heard shots coming from the 6th floor. None of them said they heard anyone on the 6th floor.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that the evidence in favor of the TSBD is lacking.

[profmunkin]

Do you think that JFK actually called out he was hit? Please answer, yes or no.

No I don't.
The point is Kellerman, thought he did, then did not react, either by jumping over the seat to protect him or telling Greer to get out of there, not until after the fatal head shot 4-6 seconds after he thought JFK had said he was hit.

[profmunkin]

Profmunkin, just what do you hope to accomplish here?

To learn more about the assassination based on what the witnesses experienced.

I have no illusions that you guys are capable of deviating from the official story line, but it is curious to see how lacking the WC Report is in actual evidence and how many posts refer to "experts" and "scientific rhetoric" to explain away the majority of testimony that can be corroborated.

Finally, if this forum ever gets a new member, the posts are there to view and maybe they will be curious enough to want to uncover what the truth is.

As long as I can post, I will post what I believe is the truth.