Author Topic: Shenzhou 7?  (Read 211379 times)

Offline gillianren

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #210 on: June 24, 2012, 11:22:16 PM »
No, I am citing an email that was sent to Jarrah White via Zheng. Zheng said the walk was faked, not Jarrah.

No, Jarrah says the guy says the spacewalk was faked.  You are taking Jarrah's word for it.  Now, you have been around long enough to know exactly how far you should trust Jarrah White, I'm sure, and yet you're willing to believe him here because you want to believe him.  You should be asking yourself if you think he's worth listening to about spaceflight at all, not just when you already agree with him.  Be honest.  Would Jarrah lie about it?
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #211 on: June 25, 2012, 07:25:16 AM »
The academic papers authored under the name Qu Zheng that I have been able find fall into two categories, materials science/chemistry and atmospheric science.  The latter category of papers, authored by Zheng Qu or Zheng-Wang Qu, seem to be the work of the author in question.    It is also necessary to point out that we still don't know if he does or ever did work for JPL.  The existence of an email address at an academic institution does not prove employment nor does being one among several authors of a paper published by the institution.   So lets get some perspective on this.  An atmospheric scientist is neither an expert on the capabilities of the Chinese space program or nor an expert on videography.  Nor does an affiliation with the JPL provide any support for whatever he may say.  So assuming he responds, any opinion that he provides that is not backed up by a complete analysis will be of no more value than Vincent's, "it look like therefore it is" contention.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 08:16:52 AM by Echnaton »
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Offline theteacher

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #212 on: June 25, 2012, 09:59:30 AM »
Well I'm glad that a bunch of more experienced people telling you it looks nothing like underwater and is not in fact remotely suspect in appearance means absolutely nothing. Glad we didn't waste our time then...
Did you even read and understand our responses?

Yes, I read them, but I believe you are DEFINITELY wrong.

Is there a faint possibility, that you yourself might be wrong?

Offline ka9q

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #213 on: June 25, 2012, 10:08:30 AM »
Not at all. I'm saying that his legs floating away from him in any direction is suspicious.
One of the biggest giveaways in Hollywood space flight is that things don't slowly drift off in various arbitrary directions. Instead they tend to wiggle around arbitrarily in a limited space. A good example is the shuttle scene in 2001: A Space Odyssey when Dr. Floyd chats with a crew member while eating. His food tray suddenly rises, wiggling a little left and right at the same time but not rotating. Newton's first law of motion states that objects change momentum only when acted on by external forces. If they're stopped, they stay stopped. If they're moving, they continue to move in the same direction. There was no force to make his tray suddenly start moving upward, nor to make it wiggle from side to side.

The scene may have worked fine when 2001 first came out because we had yet to see people actually weightless in a large cabin. Now that we've all seen decades of real weightlessness from Skylab, Shuttle, Mir and ISS, the 2001 scene looks downright hokey. Even recently faked zero-G scenes just don't look right. In real zero-G it's almost impossible to completely remove all angular and linear velocity from every free-floating object. Everything tends to slowly move in straight lines in different directions at constant speeds. They often have a little angular momentum too, and here the physics gets really complicated and counterintuitive; suffice it to say that the best place to demonstrate the physics is in space.

Going underwater simply won't do. It may be good enough for training to make each object neutrally buoyant as a whole but that won't fool anyone who's seen real zero-G. You'd have to make every part of every object neutrally buoyant so they would not tend to rotate with their lightest sides up. Water has far too much drag. Even pure water is far from completely transparent and colorless. Water's refractive index is higher than air (and vacuum). And on and on.

The only way to do truly convincing zero-G for a sophisticated audience without actually going into space is with parabolic lobs in an airplane, as in Ron Howard's Apollo 13. Even that has many giveaways, mainly the limitation of airplane weightlessness to about 20 seconds at a time. That works in Hollywood where edits are rapid anyway, but not for your typical space TV footage with static shots lasting many minutes.

The bottom line is simple: it remains simply impossible to produce a fake spacewalk scene that can fool modern viewers who understand physics and know what real spacewalks look like. That includes doing it underwater. The Chinese spacewalks are perfectly real.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 10:13:50 AM by ka9q »

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #214 on: June 25, 2012, 11:36:55 AM »
Even pure water is far from completely transparent and colorless. Water's refractive index is higher than air (and vacuum). And on and on.

The most notable feature to those of us that have seen the NASA - Neutral Buoyancy Lab pool at the JSC is the color.  It is a deep, beautiful blue.  The docents attribute the effect to the color of the overhead lights, but I suspect it is more complicated than just that.   Either way, photos and video taken in the NBL pool are noticeable dissimilar to those taken in space.  Not that this means that a new effort to fake a video could not be done, but it raises the plausibility hurdle for a claim of underwater fakery by showing a clear example of the extent to which a faked video would need to be changed to become passable.  I invite Vincent to tell us what technologies would be required to make the fakery undetectable, provide us a proven example of its use, and show that the Chinese have this technology.


Quote
One of the biggest giveaways in Hollywood space flight is that things don't slowly drift off in various arbitrary directions. Instead they tend to wiggle around arbitrarily in a limited space. A good example is the shuttle scene in 2001: A Space Odyssey when Dr. Floyd chats with a crew member while eating. His food tray suddenly rises, wiggling a little left and right at the same time but not rotating....The scene may have worked fine when 2001 first came out because we had yet to see people actually weightless in a large cabin. Now that we've all seen decades of real weightlessness from Skylab, Shuttle, Mir and ISS, the 2001 scene looks downright hokey.

In this connection, I nominate the phrase "Doing the Hokey Pokey" for the Bingo card square referring to a reference to the special effects in 2001. 

Everyone join in:
You put the special effect in, you take the special effect out, you put the special effect in and shake it all about...
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline SolusLupus

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #215 on: June 25, 2012, 01:39:36 PM »
Can I just say?  If they really did fake all of this underwater, fool the world, and fool telemetry and satellites in space...

Then these people have accomplished far more than a space walk, because they just achieved the seemingly impossible, and at probably very high cost, too!  Certainly more expensive than going into space.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #216 on: June 25, 2012, 02:36:49 PM »
And if it isn't, they should be selling their underwater spacewalk technique to Hollywood.
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Offline SolusLupus

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #217 on: June 25, 2012, 02:38:18 PM »
They could patent it and make nothing but scifi films better than 2001!  Instead of Hollywood or Bollywood, it would have to be Chinese... hmm... Chinawood?  That sounds weird.
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Offline cjameshuff

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #218 on: June 25, 2012, 02:59:33 PM »
And why? Why would they fake it? They can do it for real. This is China, they've been successfully launching satellites and large rockets for quite a while now, the manned Shenzhou missions alone spanning almost a decade. These things fly a few hundred miles overhead around the entire globe, they have been photographed by amateurs and have certainly been closely monitored by governments. A spacewalk is not outside their capabilities, and a hoax would be incredibly risky. So what possible motivation would they have?

And once again, you have no evidence. There's several parts of the video that are clearly inconsistent with being under water...objects rattling around without drag, the flag flopping forward against its direction of motion, clearly not being pulled through water. Your supposed giveaways are things that someone trying to fake it could easily avoid, and are also entirely consistent with an actual spacewalk. Your complaints about the scene appearing blue tinted when you adjust the color balance to make the dominant source of light in the scene appear more blue show your lack of critical thinking on this subject. You have a video of a freefall environment that is not filled with water...either they launched a studio into orbit to fake the spacewalk in, or they did a spacewalk.

Offline SolusLupus

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #219 on: June 25, 2012, 03:01:18 PM »
Hold on, I'm actually liking this hoax idea.  China's trying to corner the market on science fiction movies in Zero G environments!  That's just awesome.
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #220 on: June 25, 2012, 03:28:39 PM »
I have A LOT to reply to here, and I'll get around to all of it in the next day. I have much to do, but I don't want anyone to think I've left.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #221 on: June 25, 2012, 03:42:54 PM »
Hold on, I'm actually liking this hoax idea.  China's trying to corner the market on science fiction movies in Zero G environments!  That's just awesome.

It certainly makes a heck of a lot more sense.
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Offline Inanimate Carbon Rod

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #222 on: June 26, 2012, 08:34:20 AM »
I have A LOT to reply to here, and I'll get around to all of it in the next day. I have much to do, but I don't want anyone to think I've left.

Your eloquent, thoughtful and extremely well researched insights into a subject you are clearly an expert in are the high points of my day. Please hurry back Vincent, as I'm not sure how long I can hold my breath for.

P.S. How's your underwater experiments getting on? You've gone awfully quiet on that - I hope it's not due to your complete failure to prove your point.
Formerly Supermeerkat. Like you care.

Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #223 on: June 28, 2012, 03:04:22 AM »
P.S. How's your underwater experiments getting on? You've gone awfully quiet on that - I hope it's not due to your complete failure to prove your point.

I haven't gotten the chance to do ANYTHING underwater in the last few days. I was at Knott's yesterday and I've been very hard at work on building a spacecraft mock up, but I do have news on the Shenzhou 7 front, and now that it's past midnight, I finally have some time to share an update. I will post below...
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #224 on: June 28, 2012, 03:06:33 AM »
So Dr. Zheng emailed me back at his JPL address.
He does still believe the mission was a hoax. Here is his exact email to me:

Quote
Yes, but what I found was that the video was a faked ‘live cast’, there still exists a possibility that they faked the video (for fear of broadcast a failure) while actually did perform the EVA—we don’t know.
I am sure the video was faked because I did orbital analysis with SZ-7 and compared the scene in the ‘live video’ and found many inconsistencies, e.g. the spacecraft was actually flying over a land while the ‘live video’ showed ocean on its camera (pointing backward of its moving direction).
Sorry I don’t have time for now to explain the details, but if you are interested I could later send you my communications with a friend on this. If you happen to be an amateur radio /astronomy fan you could do the orbital analysis yourself. The orbital parameters (TLE) can be downloaded from http://www.space-track.org/ , the catalogue number for SZ-7 is 33386.
-Dr. Qu Zheng.

I got his permission to use his statements in my argument. There. A named expert for you. And I'm willing to bet there are many...many more out there that simply aren't saying anything.
"It looks better now, Al. What change did you make?"
"I just hit it on the top with my hammer."

-Mission Control and Alan Bean on Apollo 12 after the TV camera failed.